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Matt is raising a LUSH!

March 2nd, 2010  |  by  |  Published in Uncategorized  |  139 Comments

Photo by Kirk Jones (www.kirkjones.info)

Photo by Kirk Jones (www.kirkjones.info)

And CNN has the fricking goods on him. For shame, Dadwagon Matt. Such a lovely child, too!

If you have come over here from CNN.com, welcome to DadWagon. We’ve been fearlessly covering the babies-in-bars controversy forever (or at least for a few weeks). World Famous Writer Matt Gross, pictured above with his lil’ Lush, chided the NY Post for its breathless tone on the issue, while the Moderately Famous Nathan Thornburgh opined that babies in bars might keep adults from getting laid. Christopher Bonanos was reasonable: just have a baby-friendly happy hour, while Theodore Ross (who no one has heard of anywhere) might have already been drunk, because he ended up talking about Neo-Nazis having sex.

Fortunately, we posted a poll so that you can tell us if we’re all crazy.

There are actually lots of arguments over here: the four of us have disagreed on raising geeks, whether sleep training is evil, and whether birthing classes are a Wicca conspiracy. Also controversial: sending young kids to private school, letting little boys have glamrock hairdos or watch too much TV, and whether parents should turn their criminal kids over to the cops.

We also have the good interviews: with Marxist professors, Filipino rappers, and today, with tech blogger/sexual abuse survivor Joel Johnson.

As much as we adore CNN.com (corporate cousin to Nathan’s erstwhile employers), we hope to see you around here a bit as well.


  1. Bababooee says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 1:46 pm(#)

    Leave the GD kid at home!

  2. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 1:55 pm(#)

    Bababooeee–then who’s gonna watch him when I’m lying dead drunk under the bar? You?

  3. Nathan says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 1:55 pm(#)

    Point taken, but really, leave the baby with whom? One thing we’re pretty sure about is that it suck to pay a babysitter $10-$15 an hour while you get a beer. Alas, I won’t be able to get your enlightened answer to this, since I’m pretty sure moron@dot.com is not a real address. Woe.

  4. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 1:55 pm(#)

    Oh, and by the way–we at DadWagon do not censor profanity (in re GD). So please fucking spell it the fuck out next fucking time, goddamn it!

  5. jg says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 1:57 pm(#)

    Hey you chose to make the CHOICE to be a stay at home Dad. If you don’t like it, YOU made a bad decision. Deal with it. Don’t expect others to really care that you get stir crazy, it was your CHOICE. Bars are no place for children.

  6. Fuck You says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 1:58 pm(#)

    Hey, douchebag, leave your crotchfruit at home. If you can’t bear to be separated that long, then stay there with her.

  7. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 2:02 pm(#)

    Dear “Fuck you”–CROTCHFRUIT. Now that’s poetry. Really. I’m not kidding. I freaking love that.

  8. Matt says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 2:06 pm(#)

    “Bars are no place for children.” That’s an assertion, not an argument. Try harder next time.

  9. stormsweeper says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 2:18 pm(#)

    Hell, I took my son to the pub the first week we had him home from the hospital. How else is he supposed to know about my culture?

  10. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 2:24 pm(#)

    Right on Stormsweeper. BTW–what was the father doing then? :)

  11. Jason says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 2:32 pm(#)

    I understand people’s aversion to bringing their children to bars. Fortunately, the strip bar that my kids and I frequent is all-nude, and per local law cannot serve booze.

  12. David says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 2:41 pm(#)


    What is your stance on a bar that bans infants and minors?

    I don’t think people have to justify their preference not to have crotchfruit in a bar, any more than they have to justify their views on politeness or taste. My argument is: I don’t like it … and enough other people don’t like it that bars ban them to please their customers. QED.

    It wouldn’t upset me if there were bars that opened themselves up to your ilk. (Hell, why not open a daycare pen in the cloakroom?) I just wouldn’t go to them.

  13. Matt says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:10 pm(#)

    I don’t have any problem with bars banning kids—if the owners have calculated that losing parental business is more than made up for by the business they get from people without kids, then fine. I understand.

    What I don’t understand is how people think that simply by saying “I don’t like it” that that somehow justifies a baseless prejudice. What if I said “I don’t want black/gay/straight/tall people, so the bar should ban them”? How is that different from what you’re saying?

    If a bar wants a certain clientele, they’re free to create an atmosphere that encourages it and to some degree excludes outsiders. But if an outsider shows up—say, a very tall, 18-month-old lesbian—the bar and its patrons shouldn’t leap to banning them.

    Yours in silly arguments,


  14. stormsweeper says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:17 pm(#)


    I am the father, unless you mean my priest. I don’t have one, but I would not be surprised to find some of them from St. Sebastian there.

    I’m not insane, though. I wouldn’t take my kid to the bar under the train tracks. That place is just depressing.

  15. Pissov says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:19 pm(#)

    What the fuck is Matt looking at? Doesn’t seem like he is socializing with anyone or vice-versa. Apparently starring at a TV in a bar with a GAY-ASS smile on his face can be accomplished at home. He must have a bush pig at home.

  16. David says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:36 pm(#)


    If you think my preference is grounded in a baseless, discriminatory prejudice, then why would you support bars catering to that prejudice? Shouldn’t they be compelled by law to serve you? Doesn’t justice demand that I tolerate your baby spitting up over your shoulder or screaming while I try to sip my beer next to you?

    If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll acknowledge that you’re filled with baseless prejudices. (Question: baseless as in my reasons haven’t been articulated, or baseless as in no rational basis whatsoever? I’m willing to grant I haven’t thought much about it, but I’m not willing to grant there’s no rational basis for my preference.)

    Before I give you an argument for my preference, you’re going to have to show me why I have to. Show me how my preference is the same as not wanting black/gay/straight/tall people in the bar, as opposed to, say, not wanting nudists in the bar.

  17. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:40 pm(#)

    Yeah Matt–you bitch!

  18. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:41 pm(#)

    Oh wait a minute–I like Matt, not the wack job trying to debate him in the comments section. sorry. I got carried away.

  19. stormsweeper says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 3:59 pm(#)

    We should totally organize a pub stroll. I could probably rope in a few other recent fathers from my judo club.

  20. Matt says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:06 pm(#)

    Wait, what’s the difference between tall people and nudists? Honestly, I don’t care if there are naked people at a bar, or old people, or whatever. As the old Greek dude in “Muppets Take Manhattan” said, “Peoples is peoples.”

    As for my kid screaming: If she does, I’ll be the one removing her from the premises. I’m not stupid, you know, even if I do smile a gay-ass smile once in a while. But my kid rarely screams, has only thrown up twice in her life, and behaves well—probably better than many other bar patrons. Why should she (and I) suffer because others her age don’t have her maturity?

    Yours in hurriedly typed-out responses,


  21. David says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:15 pm(#)


    Damn, Ted, for a minute there I thought you had become a mensch and jumped off the dadwagon.

  22. Theodore says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:17 pm(#)

    david–finally a response to a post by someone who knows me! prior to this, all of these comments were from people who either went to school with nathan or live next door to him.

  23. Jeff says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:35 pm(#)

    If I wanted to drink around kids, I would open a daycare…leave the brats at home or God forbid, cough up some money for a sitter like normal people do!!

  24. Pete says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:44 pm(#)

    This is hilarious…..gotta love the term “crotchfruit”, just rolls off the tongue better than my term, “shitmakingmachine.”
    Anyway, I don’t have a problem with someone bringing their kid into a bar, why would I care? I think it could be a great experience for all involved, just don’t try to change the culture of the bar because you brought your kid.

  25. you're ugly says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:51 pm(#)

    The picture of you on cnn.com is scary – you are truly an ugly individual. No wonder you cropped yourself out on the same pic on your website.

  26. paul says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 4:59 pm(#)


    Why should your kid be punished because other kids are less mature and puke and snot constantly? Well maybe it is because for every responsible parent/ankle biter their are 10 to 20 idiots who take it too far. So there your cute, albeit drunk looking baby, are well behaved I have to put up with 20 others who are screaming at the top of their lungs becuase they just shat themselves!!
    Unfortunately for you there are more spoiled little kids in the world than good ones.

  27. paul says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:02 pm(#)

    and now that I think about it the real problem is if some drunken slob starts to sob uncontrollably because his wife/gf dumped his sorry ass I can look over and holler “shut up asshole no one cares” I think doing that to a bay would be in poor taste. And as you can tell I am all about class and taste.

  28. Eric says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:11 pm(#)

    You are ridiculous…if a baby is allowed in the bar, then a 13 year old, or a 16 year old should be as well…use youre god damn common sense and if you want alcohol and socializing time with your brat then do it in your freaking house…stupid…

  29. your baby is ugly and you are selfish says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:11 pm(#)

    Do they have a sign on the front of bars in NY that says No Minors? They do in Canada. Sign or not, however, your actions are incredibly selfish. Partly to the people who are trying to get the fuck away from babies by attending an adult-only venue and mostly to your child. You made a choice to have a child and now you can’t reconcile that with making adult decisions. If you are so weak that you can’t stop from getting drunk with your child, at least do it at home, fuck face. NO ONE LIKES YOUR BABY. GO HOME. FUCK YOU.

  30. Battman says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:12 pm(#)

    I don’t get some of the converstaions here, it’s like arguing the color of the sky.
    Bottom line, law states you need to be xx age to enter and sit at certain establishments. Bars are bars….at what age do you draw the line? Does anyone want to drink and hollar with a 14 year old staring at them as they sit with their Dad?
    Same thing goes, I don’t want a slurring drunk lying on the mat next to my 10 month old boys at The Tots Jungle Gym…makes sense.
    Matt….find other social enviroments to interact with your kid in tote.
    A really silly argument and worthless piece on CNN.com

  31. Eric says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:12 pm(#)

    i cant spell…i dont care….youre stupid…

  32. john says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:19 pm(#)

    Matt, how many beers do you have while holding your lil one? Do you think she’s oblivious as to what she’s seeing? Have you no other friends that have children? Maybe you could leave you precious lil bundle of joy with them while you go tip a pint or 2.

    Does the wife know your out at the bar with her?

  33. David says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:23 pm(#)


    Do you honestly think that a bar requiring clothing is comparable to a bar banning black/gay/straight/tall people?

    If you do, then you’re not just biting a bullet. You’re swallowing an arsenal.

  34. Thomas Wier says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:25 pm(#)

    **Apologies – I posted this on the poll, and I suppose it was intended for this forum. Please delete whichever you see fit.**

    I am sorry, but I find the very idea of bringing a baby to a bar highly irresponsible and ultimately selfish of the parent. When you have a child, you must be ready for the sacrifices that come with that very serious commitment, and ultimately that includes going out to places that were never designed for children.

    It is for this very reason that my wife and I have not had a child yet; we are not ready to accept those sacrifices and responsibilities. Parenthood is not a role that you can assume lightly – and it is sad that so many are unwilling to make the necessary lifestyle adjustments for the sake of their children.

    Ultimately, this boils down to people who are more concerned with their own sense of leisure than the rights of others and the well-being of their children. If I am fortunate enough to have a child in the future, I will certainly not bring them to any place where adult activity is the predominant theme.

    That’s just common sense.

  35. john says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:29 pm(#)

    Thomas Wier- Well said!

  36. Mich says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:36 pm(#)

    Leave The Kid home for Christs Sake!! I’m so sick of parents that think their kids deserve to be everywhere with them. Let the kids stay home with a sitter and learn to be apart from you for a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise they grow up to be pain in the ass clingy toddlers that can’t handle being away from their parents. As an adult that has a 13yr old child, I want to go to a bar and relax and not have to hear the damn crys of a crabby ass kid. I delt with that when my own child was baby. I should not have to listen to your pain in the ass when I am out at an adult venue. I did my time and stayed home with my kid, now it is your turn to do the same thing. This is just as bad as stupid ass parents bringing an infant to a movie that is for grown ups. I don’t want to hear your screaming kid in the theater and I don’t want to see them or hear them in the bar.

  37. Nice Picture says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:40 pm(#)

    You know who’s having a great time in that picture? Not the kid. Selfish jackass.

  38. Blowhard says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:44 pm(#)

    Bravo, Thomas Wier!

    Matt – what do you think about the drunk who wants to bring his 6-pack or pint of rotgut to the local tot lot playground? It’s a public space, right, and shouldn’t everbody get to enjoy the nice park? Can’t a fella sit around with his rug rat peeps and get wasted?

    (Yes, I’m ignoring both age-related restrictions on entering bars and public consumption laws.)

  39. Battman says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:49 pm(#)

    Does this mean it’s ok to take your kid to a strip joint? Interact with Kandi grinding on your lap!

    Hey Matt…ever heard of Starbucks?

  40. Andy says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:52 pm(#)

    At least he knows that, no matter what happens from this point on in his life, nobody will ever take a picture of him that makes him look stupider.

    Nice cropping job, btw.

  41. Mike says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:53 pm(#)

    I’m confused (but I’m Canadian, so it kinda feels natural…) here in Vancouver we have restraunts and we have bars. Both serve food, and most restraunts (the non-fast food type) serve booze. You must be legal age (19 here) to enter a bar, regardless of if your with mommy or daddy. Is it somehow different in NY?

    In my book, if the law allows minors to enter the establishment it’s not a bar, it’s a restraunt so open season. But if you’re required to be legal age then leave the tots at home….and just pick up a 6 pack to enjoy on the couch (and might I suggest real beer, not that pussy 3.5% crap you guys brew below the 49th).

    Oh, and no hard feelings over that hockey game eh?

  42. buck ramone says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:57 pm(#)

    It’s just a bad idea. As an adult you shouldn’t need to be convinced of it. There are lots of things I want to do that, as a parent, I can’t. Period. Case closed.

  43. NY1971 says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 5:57 pm(#)

    “I long for adult contact. … I don’t want to be excluded from the adult world.”

    Hey pal its called being responsible. You made your choice when you decided to have a kid. SUCK IT UP.

    If you can’t afford a babysitter then buying drinks should be the least of your worries. I go to bars to get away from kids and hipsters with their inflated sense of entitlement.

  44. Battman says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 6:05 pm(#)

    Mike…………like a cold can of Canadian at Earl’s as you watch Don Cherry, you rock my friend!
    ps…curling IS a sport!

  45. Bruce says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 6:10 pm(#)

    There are plenty of family-friendly alternatives to bars. Bars are for grown-ups only, please. When I go to the bar for a pint and some adult conversation, I don’t want to deal with baby drool or poopie diapers.

  46. Bungalow Babe says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 6:14 pm(#)


    Okay, here’s the truth. Much as parents who take their kids want to be given the “bad” label — which carries a certain cache these days — the truth is that they are just sad.

    And kind of stupid.

    Oy vey. Really. I hate to pat myself on the back for having had my two oldest kids when I was in my 20’s but dudes, what this means is that, should I actually wish to hang out with my kids in bars, I can actually do so because said children are now 25 and 21 respectively.

    (Then again, we kind of have our own social circles. And subjecting my youngest — 14 years old — to the sight of mom or dad in a bar is a form of torture, I’m sure.)

    But age has nothing to do with it. This is about something else — call it common sense. The real word for it exists only in Yiddish — sechel. The closest translation is BRAINS.

    While we’re on the subject, I’d love to come out of the closet as a parent of three kids who is nevertheless thoroughly sick of seeing other people’s kids in places they don’t belong — the nail salon, the steam room at the gym, cocktail parties, book readings…and now, bars.

    If hiring a sitter is too expensive, honestly, defer the bar-going habit or develop a “nights-off” system with your partner or do co-op babysitting with friends. It won’t kill you, you’ll have more fun and piss off fewer people.

    I’m about to head out to meet some friends for drinks at a bar before heading to the 92nd St Y for a lecture. My 14 year old is home, reading Maus II for English class. My older kids live away. I’m glad I’m me and not you.

  47. Eric B says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 6:26 pm(#)

    Only shitty parents bring their little shits to the bar! Get a fucking clue, grow up, and handle your need for social contact and a cold beer (or a stiff drink) like a responsible parent. It’s in their best interests and those of everyone else in the bar. Basically you’re selfish! And you gave up that right when you had kids. The sooner you realize that the better. A good, or even reasonable, argument supporting why infants or kids should be in a bar does not exist. This rant (written by someone who has kids) doesn’t even really address all the other reasons why this is a horrible, horrible idea (e.g. bars are for adults to be adults…talk shit, tell dirty jokes, unwind, etc.). I repeat…get a fucking clue and man up.

  48. Batman says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 6:48 pm(#)

    Congratulations! You are a douchebag of the highest caliber. Do you really think that people will be on your side in this? Kind of forgot that when you have kids, some of your freedoms go out the door, didn’t ya.

    Kudos to the person that mentioned the bad crop job.

    Here ya go.


  49. Die in A Fire says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 7:21 pm(#)

    Who brings their desgner children to bars? Selfish alcoholics. Wear it proudly, hipsters. A new low, even for you.

  50. Ben Atkin says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 7:27 pm(#)

    “Should parents be allowed to bring their babies and children to bars?”

    It depends.

    The question posed in the article is too simplistic to deserve a more elaborate answer.

    I’m more concerned with parents getting drunk at Applebee’s and driving their kids home than I am with parents taking their kids to “mellow hangouts” before 7 p. m., as Matt said he does in the article.

  51. WeaselMomma says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 7:37 pm(#)

    Wow. People are really getting all bent out shape over this. What it comes down to is environment. I grew up in an area where all of the bars had kitchens, menus and family friendly atmospheres. It was expected to bring the kids to the bar for dinner out with the family or social time with friends. The bars even had high chairs available and popsicles in the back to hand out to the kids.

    My parents wouldn’t bring us to a bar at 9 pm on a Saturday night. The atmosphere wasn’t for the under 18 crowd, but Thursday at 6pm, perfect.

    Not all bars are family friendly, nor do they have to be, but I can’t see what all the hub-ub is about.

    Take your kids at family friendly time to family friendly places, what’s the big whoop?

  52. David says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 7:38 pm(#)

    Don’t drink and baby. Just say noomi nana.

  53. Nathan says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 7:50 pm(#)

    @Ben Thanks for the measured response. It TOTALLY depends, and as with anything, if your baby is totally blowing the fist-fighting, chain-smoking ambiance of a place, then you probably should move on. But if it’s a relaxed pub and an appropriate time of the day, why deny dude a drink and the bar the business.

    Funny how a lot of people seem to be projecting their fears about babies on this whole conversation. We never said (and never would, I don’t think) that people should watch their mouths. We’re talking babies here, not 9-year-olds. Who cares if people swear around babies? They can’t even talk. Nor does it damage a baby to see people drinking (responsibly). And no, we’re not driving home from a bar in Brooklyn. We walk or take the subway. And no, we don’t keep them out till 10pm. If we did suggest any of that, then perhaps we would be fuckfaces or douchebags or whatnot.

    So, like you said, it just depends.

  54. Kebra Caleo says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 7:50 pm(#)

    Just wanted to let you know that there is a group called babies and beer that meets every Friday from 4-6p.m. I will leave the location undisclosed, (for fear if some if these angry bar dwellers finding us) but you have my email if you are interested. And yes, we all bring our little ones and enjoy some much deserved wind down time after a long week. Cheers!

  55. john cave osborne says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 8:39 pm(#)

    W stands for WOW.

    strangely, i have no strong opinion on the matter, but am blow away by the passion i’m picking up in these comments, particularly the negative vibes. regardless of you how you feel, casting Matt as the worst dad ever is, well, messed up. kinda sanctimonious, too.

    i’ve spent plenty of times in big cities, and if i still lived in one, i bet that i’d hit bars a touch more frequently than i do currently. truth is, i live in a small little southern town, so when i get my drink on, it’s at home. (while rocking perfect 1-1/4 strips on the green egg, y’all. seared on the outside with a warm, pink center. poolside. recognize, bitches.)

    my point? i’m a damn good grillsman. no, actually it’s that i have a hard time getting worked up either way on this one since i kick it in the rolling suburbs.

    BUT, for those of you who are super-mad? i don’t get it. as theodore points out in his cleverly written post, people have “disagreed on raising geeks, whether sleep training is evil, and whether birthing classes are a Wicca conspiracy. Also controversial: sending young kids to private school, letting little boys have glamrock hairdos or watch too much TV, and whether parents should turn their criminal kids over to the cops.”

    what more do you have to read to realize one simple thing? there’s no manual folks. and pretending like your way is the only one? gimme a break. and while you’re giving it to me, why don’t you hand me a copy of john milton’s areopagitica, cool? b/c when i’m done, i’m gonna make sure you read it.

  56. Thomas Wier says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 8:52 pm(#)

    @ John Cave Osborne

    Unfortunately, when it comes to the internet, it is easy to lose a sense of civility with comments. I certainly do not agree with Matt’s insistence on taking his child to a place designed with adults in mind, but you are right about one thing: the demonization is all a bit much.

    However, regardless of your approach to parenting, there are certain things that are just not things that you should willingly expose your children to. Going into a bar, a place where (like it or not) cultural mores have determined as a place where smoke, language, and booze flow freely, and expecting the paradigm to shift because of the presence of your child is simply arrogance. Bars are not libraries, coffee shops or wine clubs. They are an outlet for vice.

    Expecting it to be anything else on the merits of some inflated sense of entitlement? What sense does that make?

    As I said above, a parent has a responsibility towards their child, and that should preclude exposure to smoke, foul language and intoxicated adults. Relativism is all fine and good for parenting, but explain to me how this was ever about the well-being of the child.? After all, Matt’s contention is that HE needs to relax; nowhere in his argument has he asserted that the environment is a positive one for his child.

    And that’s really the crux of the matter; the parent is concerned not about the best interests of their child, but their own gratification. However much he would like to avoid his responsibilities, it is not something that he can do as a parent simply by virtue of HAVING a child.

    Again, this is a common sense matter. You can make the claim that exposure to a bar is a positive influence on a child until you’re blue in the face – seeing as how it was designed without their interests in mind, you couldn’t be more wrong.

    Thank you for reading.

  57. Nathan says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 9:31 pm(#)

    @Thomas Wier Thanks for weighing in. I think, though, there are a couple assumptions you’re making that don’t match the scenario, particularly about Matt taking a baby where “smoke, language, and booze flow freely”.

    Smoke: there’s no smoking in any bar in New York City (or really, in most places these days). No way we’d be having this conversation if there was.

    Language: look at Matt’s kid. She’s cute and all, but she’s a BABY. Matt could drop f-bombs all day on her and it wouldn’t phase/hurt her. And nobody here was arguing for going into a bar and telling people to clean up their language. That would just be obnoxious. Nor are we talking, as so many commenters imagined, about teenagers or tweens or any other age group coming into bars. It’s babies. In bars.

    Drink: Matt already said in the CNN.com piece that he’s not knocking back double vodkas. Seeing pops drink a couple beers? Hardly going to scar the kid, who is, again, a BABY.

    As for the idea that a trip to the bar is not in the baby’s interest, it’s a fine point, if you believe that every waking moment of a parent’s life needs to be spent doing the most awesomely baby-centered things ever. Actually, though, life is a balance between sanity for the parent and edification for the baby. I’m sure Matt does baby-tastic activities all day long. An hour not devoted to Baby Einstein keeps dad sane, which in turn helps baby.

    Keep in mind that our grandparents’ generation was getting bombed on martinis every afternoon while their babies did lord know what, and our parents’ generation was doing bumps of coke while the kids watched Spiderman on TV. I think Matt’s quite civilized in comparison.

  58. Thomas Wier says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 9:41 pm(#)

    Hi Nathan:

    You raise fine points, and as far as the child is concerned, I suppose it boils down to just how much you imagine they retain at younger ages. I won’t pretend that I have the results of studies to suggest that an 18 month old child would be capable of fully appreciating the social ramifications of language. I will, however, argue that there is no point in tempting fate.

    It’s true; everyone needs to be able to relax. It is incumbent upon parents, however, to do so in a manner that offers no exposure to the child for any potential harm. While cigarette smoke may not be a concern in your area (recent smoking bans have come into effect here in Portland, OR, as well) there are still several harms that can potentially result.

    Who is to say, for instance, that another patron might not become rowdy or violent from excess drink? The other patrons in the bar are as much a liability as they are a social concern. Is it worth the risk?

    It sounds to me like Matt is a new parent, and I wish him the best of it. He may very well be a better parent than 90% of all other parents in the city, state, country, world, galaxy, etc, but should that virtue dispel the need for caution and judicious self-restraint?

    There are plenty of ways to relax…and it sounds to me like this has actually caused more stress than it has cured.

  59. Bob says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 10:19 pm(#)

    “That’s an assertion, not an argument. Try harder next time.”

    You sound as much of a hipster douche as those goofy glasses make you look. How about setting a better example for your kid and not drinking around her?

    “We should totally organize a pub stroll. I could probably rope in a few other recent fathers from my judo club.”
    What are you going to do, swing your baby at them? Do you not realize that bringing your child to pick a fight might not be such a great idea? People like you shouldn’t have children.

  60. Lila says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 11:05 pm(#)

    I’m sorry, but if you are allowed to have your baby with you at the bar, I should be allowed to have my 19 year old cousin sit with me at the bar when I enjoy my beer and she enjoy her soda.

  61. vunder says:

    March 2nd, 2010at 11:50 pm(#)

    Let me ask a question of all y’all: If you weren’t told that that picture was in a bar, would you know it was in a bar? There is food, a table, windows, an empty champagne flute and a bottle of water. If you ask me, that’s not even a bar.

  62. vunder says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 12:13 am(#)

    wait wait wait, this is a bar in SAN FRANCISCO?! This is an even more complete absurdity. Why did they publish a picture of him in a bar in SF if they’re all fussed about bars in Brooklyn? Ridiculous. Media is a mess.

  63. Chrys says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 12:27 am(#)

    Raised my daughter single-handedly for 12 years, worked a home business for 7 of those years. Never occured to me that I was missing out on the mid-day brewsky at the local watering hole.

    Granted laws are different here (unless there’s a show w/ special licencing, bars are strictly legal drinking age+)…still I imagine I’d feel like I was burdening others.

    It is appropriate that a person should expect to walk into a bar and have it be ONE place they don’t have to deal with (so wonderful) crotchfruit.

  64. felix says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 12:44 am(#)

    I think Matt is a CUNT for taking his kid to a bar. Seriously if you cant afford to hire a baby sitter you shouldnt have been fucking in the first place. Im all about kids anywhere but not in a bar, the last thing i want to see some crying fucking kid in there with some broke ass dad that should be saving his money to be able to take care of his kid. Why make us pay for your fucking mistake. Stay home dude!!!

  65. David says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 12:50 am(#)

    Hey, which San Francisco bar is that?

    I’d like to know … so I can avoid it.

  66. Pat says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 1:03 am(#)

    First and last time visitor here, after reading the CNN story. And, I’m a 8+ year at-home dad who also likes his beer and wine. Still…..

    Keep the kids out of bars. You want to get out? Take a healthy walk, sit in a locally-owned coffee shop, let the kid crawl about there. Go to a museum, a kid’s playplace, a park. Kids get nothing out of being in bars, it isn’t a generally good atmosphere for them, so it’s a strictly selfish act. Recognize that. From on SAHD to another.

  67. Enoch says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 1:06 am(#)


    Just FYI – The CNN mentions that people have been asked to change their behavior by parents who have brought their children into bars. While “no one is arguing it here” might be true, the thought is an extension of the article.

    And, no, not every waking moment of a parent’s life should be spent doing baby things, but activities involving the child should be considered with the interests of the baby, and not the parent, in mind. This act is selfish and doesn’t have to be. Just don’t bring the baby.

    And your argument that being exposed to a bar or harsh language or the father drinking isn’t a bad thing for a baby doesn’t really conclude that it is good for the child.

    By the way, it may be just me, but the child in the picture appears to be crying. Certainly not an endorsement from Sasha.

  68. mwrg says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 1:20 am(#)

    Jesus, if you can’t afford a baby sitter @ $10-15/hour, don’t pop one out. What is that, two less beers a trip (or, god forbid, a less expensive beer that people have actually heard of before)? How much do you people spend at the Apple store every 6 months, or every time you feel it necessary to pay extra buying organic food at the farmers market.

    If this story and it’s accompanying photo aren’t the most glaring examples of Hipster Bag Tooldom currently residing in Brooklyn, I don’t know what is. Reason number 126 to stay in Manhattan.

    How does it feel to be such a cliche?

  69. mwrg says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 1:38 am(#)

    Oh, and Christ! Dad Wagon?!?! Awesome…..If I ever show up to this site again, it will be to laugh at and mock the writers.

    Blogging, or the way I can hopefully make my narcissistic need to constantly talk about myself into a moneymaking endeavor.

    Now, please say something ironic….

  70. mwrg says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 1:45 am(#)

    Or if not something ironic, maybe another passage from a Muppets movie? Somehow I don’t think this is the kind of quality commentary Al Gore had in mind when he created the internet.

  71. Steve says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 2:27 am(#)

    As a bartender for over twenty years, it is my personal opinion that bars are no place for children, but that is my own personal opinion. It is derived from my own personal experience with dealing with this situation, and my experience a large majority of the time consists of the following:

    1. The parents let their kids run wild throughout the establishment without bothering to interrupt their buzz-seeking long enough to actually supervise their children, instead expecting the staff to do the babysitting for them.

    2. The parents get all upset if other patrons act “too loud or inappropriately” in front of their children, even though they chose to bring them to an adult-oriented venue. Adults are expected by the parents to alter their normal behavior because their little angels might hear something bad.

    3. Patrons who believe bars are not the place for children are made to feel uncomfortable and boorish if they protest the presence of children, or feel they must regulate and inhibit their behavior and not cut loose because there are kids present,and are likely to frequent other less kid-present places.

    If these dynamics could be overcome, especially #1, then maybe adults with and without kids could find a middle ground in the bar arena. However, with a large majority of parents feeling that their little angels can do now wrong and that part of the bar staff’s job is to babysit their little ones while they catch their buzz, and with the no-kids-allowed bar patrons clinging to their notions that bars are a place to escape from kids, responsibility and the outside world, I doubt this is going to happen soon.

  72. Mike Vaughn says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 2:38 am(#)

    Only in NY! Baby Bars! Coming to a California City Near You.

    Are you tired of spending time alone with your child while stuck at home? Well come on down to Bob’s Baby Bar. We’ll show you a rockin’ time, while you rock your kid in our handcrafted half-kegs.

    Wednesday nights is lullaby karaoke! Let our drunken patrons sing your child to sleep with your kids’ favorite tunes. Karaoke starts at 6:30pm and goes until 7:45pm. Warm milk not provided, so mom’s you’ll just have to whip it out. I’m sure no one will mind – especially if you’re young and hot.

    Oh, and don’t forget, BABIES aren’t really human yet, so feel free to drop the F-Bomb whenever you feel the urge. But please, do not smoke around the strollers with baby present. Thank you.

  73. Amanda says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 6:22 am(#)

    Hi!! Matt, my husband and I take our little ones (we have three) to a bar when we travel home. The place has the BEST wings and are perfect with a cold Bud Light. Granted, we do not go often, and once the place starts filling up we get them out of there. Your daughter is absolutly beautiful btw!!!!

  74. Gary Prall says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 9:20 am(#)

    I can see it now, bouncers not letting people in cause their babies aren’t hot enough. You’re good, you’re cool, go ahead in, whoa wait! Not you, you’re babies fugly, get lost.

    It’s still OK for single men to bring other people’s babies to the bar for the puppy effect, right? My buddy was watching my two year old for me and he went out for a couple pops, next thing he new, he was swarmed. I was a little upset because he dropped my kid back off an hour early, but once I laid my eyes on the guy he picked up I cut him some slack.

    I’m thinking of opening a baby rental service. The cuter the baby, the higher the price per hour.

    Matt, at least you can say you don’t drink alone.

    When you queef at the bar, do you blame it on your daughter?

  75. Theodore says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 9:34 am(#)

    The vocabulary that has come out of this comment string has been FABULOUS. Crotchfruit, queef, Hipster Bag Tooldom, Designer Children, shitmakingmachine, bar arena. Many, many thanks to those who wrote.

  76. Weaky6 says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 10:55 am(#)

    I live in Iowa. I have a deck and a nice big back yard. When I want a beer, I tell them to go play in the backyard while daddy downs a cold one. Neighbors come over, we all chill out and have a good time. How big are the backyards in the Big Apple? I know, blogging from Iowa would be impossible. We don’t have the internet. You chose to live there, you choose to live by the rules. Rule is, no minors. Pints at the bar, 3.50. I bet they are a little more in NY? :-) Peace out, w6

  77. Theodore says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 11:14 am(#)

    Weaky6–what is this “backyard” of which you speak, stranger?

  78. Matt says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 11:18 am(#)

    Weaky6, don’t you know that in New York only suckers follow rules?

  79. diehipster says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 11:25 am(#)

    “What I don’t understand is how people think that simply by saying ‘I don’t like it’ that that somehow justifies a baseless prejudice. What if I said ‘I don’t want black/gay/straight/tall people, so the bar should ban them’? How is that different from what you’re saying?”

    This is a perfect example of the sort of hipster-yuppie dearth of common sense I’m always talking about. For regular working people, something like bringing a baby into a bar is a fucking no-brainer. You don’t try to have an academic discussion about the pros and cons, theorizing about why or why not. You just don’t do it, because it’s common fucking sense. Just the same way a bunch of guys don’t set up a poker game in McDonald’s Play Place.

    The same theme continues into basically everything the hipster-yuppie transplants do. They move into the middle of ethnic neighborhoods and then complain about the people there. They ride their rickety Schwinns down busy commercial thoroughfares and then complain about the traffic. They have their parents send them heaps of money for rent and then complain that Brooklyn landlords are “greedy.” They move into busy urban areas and then complain about things like the ice cream truck’s music. I mean, it never ends. And they do this all with the most self-righteous air ever, acting as though we Brooklyn natives are trash for accepting Brooklyn the way it’s pretty much always been. It’s like these yupsters were raised in some sort of sterile suburban incubator bubble where they never learned the basic skills and logic of the world.

  80. diehipster says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 11:28 am(#)

    Oh, these sort don’t complain about the other bar customers. The other bar customers complain about them because they’ve blocked the entrances with their idiotic yupster strollers and the floor with diaper bags and toys. (Dallas had one such bar on Greenville Avenue that burned down yesterday, and that place was always packed solid with yupsters who moved to the neighborhood solely so they could walk to the bars. First it was because a public intoxication ticket was cheaper than a DWI charge, and so they could piss and shit in their own front yards when crawling home after a good eight-hour booze run. Now it’s so they can save the money on babysitters by bringing their crotchdroppings inside the bar or the liquor store on the corner.)

    As for this pencil-necked geek? Now you understand why the New York Times won’t shut the fuck up about hipster haunts. He and his ilk may write about Portland all day, but it’s not like they’d move there: the local paper wouldn’t pay them to write about hipsters all day the way they can in New York.

  81. Nathan says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 11:41 am(#)

    Whew. Thank God the anonymous sage at diehipster.com is here to stick up for the “working class”. Because if there’s anything we know about the Working Class, it’s that they spend their days railing against fixies and tight jeans on their WordPress blogs.
    Definitely worth checking their site out: http://diehipster.wordpress.com/ Some bad photoshopping and lots of fratty jokes about half-asian babies and punching people in the face. There’s probably a good point in there somewhere about gentrification, but it’s a little lost in the flood of idiocy.

  82. Thomas Wier says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 1:51 pm(#)

    This thread really kind of degenerated into something putrid, didn’t it?

    Oh well. Since the adults are getting buried, I guess that’s when it’s time to close up shop.

  83. Nathan says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 2:10 pm(#)

    @Thomas Wier Ha. Yes, there’s something rotten in the thread, although to honest, it started out that way (“Leave the GD kid at home” was the first comment). But the tone does make me wonder why there’s such a divide between parents and non-parents. If the bar is part of how and where you hang out, if it’s really about a community, then it seems like in an ideal, relaxed world, you should be able to bring your baby along once you have one (at the appropriate time of day, and being respectful of other people there).

    One thing I think that all the DadWagoners agree on is that your lives get pretty well transformed when you have a kid. We welcome that. But we don’t think it’s a shameful goal to try to integrate who you were with who you are. Parenting is a pain in the ass in the country in part because it’s hard to breastfeed where you work, hard to find a place to go out with your baby (we shouldn’t have to go to Applebee’s by law, should we?).

    As for your about babies being around violent drunks: @Steve said in his thoughtful comment that it’s ridiculous to expect bartenders to look after kids (and, it bears repeating: if you take your baby to a bar and expect anyone to adjust their behavior to your baby, then you’re the a-hole). Bartenders are responsible, however, for keeping people from getting drunk and violent. Even when there are no babies around. The good ones do this extremely well and without a lot of drama.

    And again, it all depends on context. I know the bars where people go to fight. I’m not taking the baby there. I want to go to the local pub, where people are either happy drunks or at least sulky drunks that keep to themselves. We’re not talking about crackhouses, just bars. Alcohol isn’t that scary, most of the time.

    Just my thoughts. Thanks for keeping it adult up in here.

  84. Alex says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 2:45 pm(#)

    It doesl not look like a bar, more like a good restaurant. So i think its ok to takea to place like that. Imho

  85. Weaky6 says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 5:06 pm(#)

    @Matt Jealousy will get you no where sucka! 😉 Now, if there wasn’t 20+ inches of snow on the deck, I would be using it a little more. Have you heard of a lawn mower? It goes well with that backyard thingy.

  86. Sarah says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 5:40 pm(#)

    What is the big deal? When I was in Europe, I saw kids in bars all the time! Hell, it’s a family event in Ireland.

    Why should drinking be some naughty thing that we keep closed off? To those who say it makes them uncomfortable to drink around kids, I’d say you might want to rethink your relationship with alcohol. And if there are things going on in bars that aren’t suitable for kids to see, I say THAT should be outlawed…not the presence of children.

    Why are we so ridiculous, intolerant, prudish, aghhhh the list goes on! The US needs to grow up!

    I wish you the best in your efforts–if all else fails open your own bar specifically for families! You could have a sign on the door, instead of “no shirt, no shoes, no service,” how about “no stroller, no babe, no booze!”

  87. Meghan says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 5:40 pm(#)

    $10-$15/hr for a sitter?! I’m going to leave the Midwest, move to New York and undersell all the local sitters by $5 and make a fortune. My sitter here gets paid $2.50/hr and feels guilty if I tip her to make her bill an even $20. That said, a bar is for adults. A pub, in it’s original conception, is a family place until a certain hour. Visiting my mum’s family in England and Ireland, pubs often had cots for children to nap on if the hour was late and the parents were still socializing. Know what kind of joint you’re in, be aware of the time and your child’s mood/behavior, and responsible in your consumption and I don’t see a problem. If this is such an issue, maybe someone should open a stroller pub. Call it MacLaren’s.

  88. Sarah says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 5:42 pm(#)

    PS I’m not a dad, um, obviously but I hope it was okay to share my view. Again, best of luck!

  89. Nathan says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 6:04 pm(#)

    @Meghan MacLaren’s–that’s a hilarious idea. I do wonder if a baby-only bar in Brooklyn wouldn’t also get firebombed (judging from some of the commentary over here). On a serious note, though–$2.50 an hour for babysitters? I don’t know if that’s the most wonderful or most terrifying thing I’ve heard all day. Please tell me you’re talking about how much you pay you teenager to watch over younger siblings? Because even in the Midwest, people have to you know, eat.

    @Sarah Yes, non-dads totally welcome, don’t let the name fool you. We are an inclusive Wagon over here. Thanks for commenting.

  90. Chris (Tessasdad) says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 6:07 pm(#)

    I don’t see the big deal about this. I probably wouldn’t do it as I live in a smaller town and would have to deal with what you guys are dealing with in the comments here – a bunch of sanctimonious opinionated ado over really nothing. From the photo, it actually looks like a nice place as well.

    So if we break it down further…the smoking in bars argument. There’s no smoking in NYC. I’d love to have that here in Michigan (militia and tea-bagger central) although the law is finally changing for restaurants in April/May.

    Disreputable people hang out in bars. Disreputable people hang out everywhere. I was hanging out one day at the coffee shop meeting with a reporter friend of mine. We were talking about the sex offender list so for shits and giggles we looked up the zip code for where we were at. We ended up seeing two people on the list who hang out at that coffee shop all the time. Assholes and dirtbags are everywhere no matter where you hang.

    That’s all for me – family is heading to Chili’s for 2 for 1 margarita night.

    Just kidding.

  91. Sean says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 6:15 pm(#)

    Darn cute kid. The expression looks like he just discovered stale beer. And, who better to discover stale beer with than your Pops- your sixth grade peers? ::snort:: CNN coverage- excellent.

  92. Meghan says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 6:15 pm(#)

    @Nathan No. She’s the daughter of a work colleague and I offered to pay her $5, but her mother balked at it and said $2.50 was enough. There’s not much in the way for adult sitters/nannies around here, but the average going rate seems to be around $5, but my girl seems perfectly happy with her $2.50 and practically dances when she gets a $20 bill. She’s 15, so maybe that’s a lot of money? Kansas seems to be behind in a lot of things, but unlike our being at least a year behind in getting current fashions in stores, I’m not complaining about the lack of inflation for sitters. I can’t believe the vehemence of some of these comments. 7 pm at a local pub is not the balls to the walls bacchanalia that, say, 1 or 2 am is. As long as you’re not hovering over other patrons asking them to change their behavior and are responsible yourself, there should be no problems. Have your beer and maybe a sandwich, then get kiddo home for bed and watch some tv or read a book or whatever it is you do in the evenings. The douches that seem to think children are a plague need to take a pill and relax. My child is cuter than your designer duds any day of the week.

  93. Danny Hein says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 6:53 pm(#)

    Why do folks always have to fuck shit up. Show’n off your baby on the bar like it’s a Razr phone.

  94. Psych O. says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 7:08 pm(#)

    I just don’t get it. What’s all that fuzz about? You should move to europe as over here there is nothing special about it. Also there is no censoring of words like fuck on TV and bare breasts are also no problem. By the way I am the father of a 7 month old son. Keep it up!

  95. Kristin says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 7:40 pm(#)

    Seriously, I don’t know where to begin. What’s with all the baby hate. You may not agree with Matt’s actions but if you hate children (BTW you used to be one and without them the species would die) so much that you must refer to them as shits, brats and crotch fruit, that’s an issue for your therapist not this blog.

    Second, this is New York City. I live in Toronto and I can tell you my kid is just as likely to encounter drunkenness and obscenity on the street/subway/playground as in a bar in the afternoon. I hate to repeat what’s been said, well, repeatedly but we are not talking about late nights out getting soused. It’s a pint in a pub during or before the dinner hour. Chill the fuck out. If you need to be out drinking your ass off flinging obscenities at 5pm I will reiterate, that’s an issue for your therapist.

  96. johnnyrotten says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 9:07 pm(#)

    I LOVE the comments. So creative and original. Pure comedy. Obviously, none of you have kids nor live in Park Slope, Brooklyn. It’s a different world. Kids are part of the community, and socializing at a bar, with your friends, and kids, is part of that community. And there is no reason parents can’t get out and enjoy the simple things in life. That’s what makes it so unique. We’re not talking heavy drinking establishments, just local, clean, and fun hang spots where you can drop in with your wife and the crotchfruit for a cold one and conversation and existing in the real world. And this is something that happens on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, not at prime time meat market hours. Why should kids be hidden away from the rest of the world? Anyone ever been to France, the UK, Germany, Italy? They seem to enjoy themselves out at local establishments with the kids. No problem. No whining. What a bunch of bitches you all are. Am sure there are better things for you to do than worry about Matt and Sasha. She will likely be a woman of the world, smart, intelligent and open minded. You, likely, will end up flat on the floor of some crappy bar, complaining about the sex parties your kids throw in high school, without inviting you.

  97. Accidents says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 9:45 pm(#)

    Wow. Seriously? Mob-Internet-Justice is a SCARY thing to behold. For the record, y’all look charming to me, Matt and Sasha. And I’ll pour out some champagne for you next time I’m in a bar and not worrying about the fury of the Internet descending upon me.

    Thankfully I live in rational Wisconsin where children aren’t just allowed in bars with their parents, they are allowed to drink with them.

    From the Wisconsin Department of Revenue website: “Yes. Persons under age 21 may be on licensed premises, and can be sold and allowed to drink alcohol beverages, if they are with their parents, guardians, or spouses, as long as those persons are of legal drinking age; but this is at the discretion of the licensee.”

    Of course, it’s at the discretion of the bar–and that’s where I think it should be left. I occasionally go to a few bars, in the daytime, where I know the owners, with my kid (one of them is run by my baby daddy, so I guess that might not be the best example). I wouldn’t go to a bar during a high traffic time, and I wouldn’t go to a bar where I hadn’t already determined it would be acceptable to staff and clientele (or to most of the clientele–there’s no accounting for…well..we all know crotchfruit is an *acquired* taste).

    Anyway, go DadWagoners for fearlessly accepting all the heat!

  98. Danny Hein says:

    March 3rd, 2010at 9:54 pm(#)

    So is it cool if I drink at the play ground? Sweet!

  99. fucknewyorkcity says:

    March 4th, 2010at 12:14 am(#)

    fuck cnn. fuck matt. fuck this meme. meta-assholes.

  100. noah says:

    March 4th, 2010at 12:42 am(#)

    When I want to relax, have a drink and discuss events after a long day at work, the last thing I want to see is a bunch of toddlers and babies running around. It stresses me out to be somewhere that is meant to be child free and have to be confronted with a screaming, shitting kids. I love how parents are saying how selfish everyone else is…no, you are selfish. You are selfish when you take your kids to a nice restaurant night and let them scream, cry and run around, you are selfish when you take your kids to rated R movies and then walk out half way through saying ” this movie isn’t for you!” to the kid, you are selfish when you make your poor kid sit with you in a cafe when the kid is obviously not entertained, you are the selfish entitled bastards who have no sympathy for anyone else in the world besides yourself and your band of hipster parents. And as for the Euros who say “chill” I am half British and tell me how awesome is it to be in a pub when a group of chav children come in? Lovely innit?

    Someone earlier left this comment and I think it sums up this whole argument quite well…” NO ONE LIKES YOUR BABY. GO HOME. FUCK YOU.”

  101. Nathan says:

    March 4th, 2010at 6:18 am(#)

    @Meghan Ah, yes–being 15 makes more sense. And congratulations for having found a cheap childcare solution. You and the girl should move to NYC and make your fortune. It’s very possible that our babysitter will make more money than me this year. But that’s because I… blog.
    @Psych O. Totally, Europe does not seem to have these anger issues.
    @Kristin Canada does still have some haters, apparently, which makes your comment all the more welcome. And, of course, congratulations on Sidney Crosby’s Canadianness.
    @JohnnyRotten So funny! So true!
    @Sean Thanks for the vote for Sasha. She’s taken a lot of hits this week. Thank goodness she can’t read.
    @Accidents You can really drink with your parents in Wisconsin if you’re under 21? You guys really are Germans up there, aren’t you? We’ll have to visit sometime. Meanwhile, if you’re not a bile-spewer, visit @Accidents’ blog. It’s really good.

  102. Pat says:

    March 4th, 2010at 9:29 am(#)

    I think I’ll apply to be an editor at this site. Let me make my first submission by responding to those on this thread.

    @PeopleWhoWithAgreeMe — So true! You guys are great, we really, really, love you!! And yes, Sasha is as wonderful as she looks, and really does have the intelligence of your average brain surgeon.

    @RudeDissenters — It’s a shame that you are so repressed, and you really need to reevaluate your relationship with alcohol, especially those of you who don’t drink. You have no idea what it’s like in Europe, where there are so much more enlightened. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7093143.stm
    Okay, I apparantly don’t know what they’re like either, but I’ll keep using them as a beacon anyway.

    @PeopleWithThoughtfulPointsWorthDiscussion — Um, I got nothin’……

    Okay, I expect my first check in the mail later today.

  103. Theodore says:

    March 4th, 2010at 9:35 am(#)

    Pat–I’m fine with paying you what we’re getting–bubkis. Actually, I’m not fine with that.


  104. Nathan says:

    March 4th, 2010at 11:13 am(#)

    Hi Pat! Nice to see you’re still on here (you did promise before, though, not to be–does “First and last time visitor here” ring a bell?) Well, since you decided to stick around, let me address your “thoughtful points worth discussing” on an individual basis, though you may have already read my thoughts in comments #3, #53, #57, and #83.

    To repeat, I don’t necessarily disagree that taking a baby to a bar is a selfish act. But without knowing too much about how you’ve handled your 8 years of a SAHD (congratulations, by the way, that is honestly impressive), I think that parents are allowed to do a selfish act every once in a while. Not everything in life, not all 24 hours in a day, needs to be completely baby appropriate and baby-centered. Matt, I’m sure, does mostly baby-friendly things during the day. And he goes to local coffee shops as well I’m sure. But sometimes you want a beer, and it’s not gonna kill the kid to tag along with you while you get one.

    My wife, who has been watching all this with amusement (I think she wishes I was more hipster than I actually am), pointed out that the objections are coming in two forms: 1) that it’s bad for the baby and 2) that it’s bad for the bar. Both seem to her like they would only be true if the dad was in the bar CONSTANTLY and it was a bar whose owners or patrons didn’t want babies. But in moderation, at the right bar, does it really make for bad parenting?

    Anyhow, that’s my thought. I would be glad to see you back here (we are in the same tribe after all), but if you must go forth and leave the DadWagon, then good luck and godspeed, Pat.

  105. Pat says:

    March 4th, 2010at 10:03 pm(#)

    Oh well, so I ended up back for some follow-ups. Didn’t expect it, but so be it.

    I agree, life does not need to be baby-centered 24 hours a day. But that doesn’t make it a good idea for babies to be in bars.

    I agree, sometimes you want a beer during the day. But that doesn’t make it a good idea for babies to be in bars.

    I agree, it probably won’t kill a kid to be in a bar. But that doesn’t make it a good idea for babies to be in bars.

    You get the point. And there are many things that won’t “kill” kids that are not particularly good ideas. To each one’s own, but I have my own ideas about certain things that make for “good” or “bad” parenting, as does everyone, and that falls on one side to me. To some others, it doesn’t.

    There are many solutions to the issue of “wanting a beer” and I’ve dealt with them myself without going to a bar, perhaps because it isn’t legal here so it never occurred to me. But I would liken it to “wanting to see a movie” that interested me. Would I bring a baby to one? No, not unless it was one of those parent/kid shows. I don’t think it’s a good atmosphere for the kid, nor for the others in the theatre, so I would abstain until a more appropriate time — after I got a sitter, trading free kid-watching with another parent, or waited to watch a DVD when the kid is asleep.

    In sum, some adult-oriented interests can be satisfied while still being fine for the kid. Others, not. I can live with that.

  106. Dustin Thacker says:

    March 6th, 2010at 11:02 am(#)

    Yeah the CNN article sparked a huge argument with an old HS classmate on Facebook. here is a link to the whole thing (in reverse chronological order – so start at the bottom).

    Oh yeah, and here is my son and I enjoying a Smithwick’s…

  107. Dustin Thacker says:

    March 6th, 2010at 1:32 pm(#)

    Got a baby? Had him/her in a bar recently? Submit your photo here…http://babiesinbars.tumblr.com/

  108. Nathan says:

    March 6th, 2010at 1:41 pm(#)

    Dustin–wow, that seemed to get pretty personal there. Always makes
    or fun reading. And I never actually bothered to look up the law like you did–very interesting that any accompanied kid under 16 has to be let in. Thanks for sending the link.

  109. Tammy says:

    March 8th, 2010at 2:25 am(#)

    I was about to post a long comment, but then realized that Kristin has already said everything I wanted to say. Though perhaps I should add that, because I live in Vancouver and not Toronto, my children are more likely to see drunkenness, obscenity *and* open heroin use in a public place than in a bar. It sure would be nice if people could get this riled up over that issue.

    It’s too bad that so many people here seem to dislike children. Most kids are pretty sweet, despite the occasional fits of screaming and poopiness. Also, some day they’re going to be in charge of our feeding tubes. Might be a good idea to cultivate their favour while we can.

  110. Teacher says:

    March 8th, 2010at 3:29 pm(#)

    I am a teacher. I got a master’s degree so I could make peanuts to teach your children, and when they fail to work or show up or even sign their name on the blank standardized test forms they hand in, I get blamed. I drink to forget your kids. Leave them at home.

  111. Theodore says:

    March 8th, 2010at 3:52 pm(#)

    You are a teacher. Whose comment reads as if you’ve forgotten how to write. Because you are drinking.

  112. JessieVT says:

    March 9th, 2010at 9:37 am(#)

    Wow. Thanks for the Tuesday morning laugh! Dadwagon you ROCK. Time to get back to SAHMdom.

    P.S. Been there. Done that. It’s ok.

  113. nyc/caribbean ragazza says:

    March 9th, 2010at 12:45 pm(#)

    Wow. I’m blown away by the anger and name throwing on this thread.

    One of my good friends had a baby. Her husband travels a lot. Most of the time one of her relatives will watch the baby while she finishes an assignment (she freelances).

    Sometimes we will meet for an early drink and nobody cares. This could be because we live in Rome. I don’t even noticed the strollers anymore when we have aperitivos at an outdoor cafe.

    I see babies and children in restaurants all the time.

    Children here are not special snowflakes nor are they despised. They are just part of a big family unit.

    As a single person without kids I don’t see as big a divide here between people with kids and people without.

    Of course parents who bring a young child to a Rated-R movie are wrong. Going to a local pub/bar for a beer, glass of wine or cocktail in the early evening? I really don’t get why this would be big deal.

  114. Tamara says:

    March 13th, 2010at 8:11 pm(#)

    This is ridiculous.

    What are bars?
    Places where +21 year old adults go to:
    Find members of the opposite sex
    Hang out with their friends.

    What aren’t bars?
    Appropriate places for children to be, period. There’s data on children who watch their parents drink and their behaviors, just like there’s data on children who watch their parents smoke, etc.

    How can you justify this? What kind of self-centered idiot takes their kid to a bar? How old is your kid going to be before you STOP taking him/her? And when they’re 12/13 and get caught with their friends drinking, who is to blame?

    Just because you want to get a drink doesn’t entitle you to this attention-whoring, probably detrimental and DEFINITELY amoral behavior. The guy making out with his girlfriend as she rubs his crotch behind you, the bartender with forty tattoos and needle marks, the people in the corner doing their drug deal, seriously, does your kid need to be exposed to that?

    This is douchebaggery at its finest. Go get a job, one where you can afford to get a babysitter–and take yourself out without your kid. It’s just *wrong*. “I’m going to save money by not getting a babysitter and drinking in an inappropriate environment for my child to be in!”

    Seriously, grow up.

  115. stormsweeper says:

    March 15th, 2010at 10:43 am(#)

    Jesus H. Christ, Tamara, you need to find nicer places to drink.

  116. Bizarro Ward says:

    March 16th, 2010at 12:32 am(#)

    Hey tamara,
    What bar are you hanging out in? I’d definitely get a babysitter so I could check out some of that crotch rubbin’. I would love to know the history behind those forty tattoos the bartender has as well.
    Unfortunately, Matt seems to have gone to some boring local bar to have a beer before all those characters came out of the woodworks.

  117. zod says:

    March 20th, 2010at 6:12 am(#)

    Love this.

    Last year, my daughter (2yrs old) & I attempted to make a purchase for Mother’s Day in a “sex” shop.

    We were not allowed into the store — the employees were far to firm about the age restriction.

    Bars are much easier.

    Though, having just returned to the states from Japan with both her and her younger sister: without a seat, taxis are harder to get into than either a sex shop or a bar!?!!


  118. hanafi says:

    April 15th, 2010at 1:51 am(#)

    cute baby.. :)


    Move your stroller tank you hipster geek. « A place to laugh at hipsters.
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